Looking forward to Paradise Lost

I thought it was so interesting when the professors brought up Milton today. I don't mean to spoil anything for you, but there is a huge difference in Satan's role in Hell. I have been mulling the difference over all day. Why is that? Well, I think a lot of it had to do with each of the author's own personal experience. Milton was a rebellious politician, and he wrote Satan as a rebel king of hell. Dante creates his own character in the story as a pilgrim, meaning that all that he sees in the tale has a greater meaning for him. Neither of these epics should be taken as theological ground for forming your view of hell. What they do is reveal much about the author and his view of the world... There's more to it than that, but in Dante's case especially I think this has a lot to do with the understanding of the medieval world he lived in. I think, as weird as it is, that it is incredible interesting, for it chiefly illustrates an interesting view of sin. Sin is not only the crime, it is the punishment. When we choose it above God, it is what we are left to. It destroys us. God is the best thing for us, that is why he is jealous for us. Yet he leaves us to our own passions... It is interesting that in a sense, we are our own punishers, not Satan. Satan doesn't rule Hell for Dante, God's justice does. Without God's mercy saving us from our punishments, all that is left is God's justice--and that cannot stop punishment that is sin.



Commented on Becca's.

Thieves and Snakes

Dr. Mitchell said to day in class that in Dante’s hell, the crime doesn’t necessarily fit the punishment, but instead, the crime is the punishment. In Canto XXIV, Dante describes the punishment of thieves.  They are naked. Their hands are bound by snakes, which constantly attack them. How is this punishment the crime? I believe that snakes and thieves share many characteristics. To be a thief, one must be very sneaky, deceitful, conniving, and manipulative. In the Garden of Eden, the serpent shared all of these qualities. I believe that its ironic that their hands are bound by the embodiment of the qualities that got them to hell in the first place. The crime is the punishment.

I commented on Jasmine’s Blog!

Leading in which direction...

In our groups today, we talked about Canto XXVI. Ulysses pushed his limits as a human by trying to get to the end of the world. This doesn’t sound like something terribly bad, but it is because God should be the only one to be able to do something as un-human as that. Ulysses’ desires put his life in danger, as well as many other men. When journeying to the end of the world, it is apparent that Ulysses had good, persuasive leadership skills when guiding his men, but he used them for evil rather than for the good. This is something that relates to society today. There are many potential leaders out there, but they lead in the wrong direction. Many people try to do things that they shouldn’t, which push the limits that God has given us, much like Ulysses did.

I commented on Dylan's

When Hell Freezes Over

When picturing Hell, the first image that usually comes to mind is that of a fire and brimstone setting with a red skinned figure with horns and a pointy tail calling the shots; a far cry from the Hell that Dante dipicts in the Inferno. I find it extrememly interesting that the floor of Hell is a frozen lake. Some might say that it is a punishment for Satan, that his rebelllion against God was a ploy for freedom, and therefore his eternal punishment is that he is condemed to be frozen in place. However, I have another theory; that God's presence is in life. Life stems from sustainable forces, heat being one of them. So on the floor of Hell, not only is Satan being punished in an immovable prision of sorts, but he has no access to any source of life.

p.s-I commented on Katlyn Euwing's

The punishment is the crime.

today, in about three seconds Dr. Mitchell said something that has been slightly haunting me ever since. He said in Dante's hell the punishment doesn't fit the crime- the punishment IS the crime.

Fascinating. It might also be said that all who choose sin choose to suffer in a certain way. They, in a strange sense, desire that particular type of punishment rather than release from it. I don't know what to do with that information because it's changing the way I see sin. C. S. Lewis said the sin that keeps people in hell is the one thing they would keep instead of God and that one thing is their torment. So for lovers who would have love instead of God, that lover becomes their punishment. So in a strange sense people who do not want God do, in the end, get what they want. Because our own desires are hell.
Unless we be changed and born again, learning to love the will of God.

Mind blown/ reminded of the grace of God.

I commented on Susan's.

Curiosity killed the Achaean

     So, I had this thought as we talked about Ulysses(Odysseus), "Curiosity killed the Achaean." At first we find good ole Odysseus searching again, searching for something beyond what humans should know.  He says he is searching for the cause of human vices, but like Dr. Mitchell questioned, "Where the best place to learn about men?" Answer is from living among mankind, not secluding yourself out on the sea.  So curiosity was not really his crime, was it?  His thirst for special knowledge, which was really a thirst for power was a crime. His deceptive tongue which doomed his crew was a crime. His audacity to think that He could challenge God's boundaries was also a crime. He committed sins greater than incontinence, greater than just violence, and even greater than fraud. These combined sins together is one we reason we find him placed so deep in Hell, yet not in the deepest pit.
   This whole story of Ulysses reminds me of a scene from Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull, where at the end the Soviet Lady says "I want to know! I want to know everything" and ends up having herself literally exploded from 'knowledge'. There are some things humans minds are not permitted, because they can not understand it.

P.S. commented on Jasmine's post

Spiritual Absolute Zero

The Emperor of the kingdom dolorous 

 From his mid-breast forth issued from the ice; 

And better with a giant I compare 

 Than do the giants with those arms of his; 

Consider now how great must be that whole, 

 Which unto such a part conforms itself. 

 Were he as fair once, as he now is foul, 

 And lifted up his brow against his Maker, 

 Well may proceed from him all tribulation.

                                 -Canto XXXIV

I'm going a little far in the reading, but I felt that it needed to be mentioned. In Song 34, Dante mentions Satan, who is at the bottom, the ninth circle of Hell, which is home to the betrayers. It is interesting to note that at this level, there is no fire. Instead, it is frozen over, with the betrayers half frozen in ice. Three notable betrayers, Brutus, Cassius, and Judas, are being gnawed at by Satan's three heads. Dr. Brekke mentioned in class today that the ninth circle was a "spiritual absolute zero." This got me thinking.

Absolute zero is a concept in science that implies that there is a temperature that is at the lowest temperature anything in the universe could ever reach. At absolute zero, which is roughly -273.15*C, all entropy is at minimum value. The electrons in atoms stop orbiting the nuclei. Everything condenses to the point of having no mass. At absolute zero, matter ceases to exist.

I have thought about that concept since then, and I realized that the worst possible punishment would be to no longer exist. We had mentioned that the punishment always fit the crime, but for this circle of Hell, I could find no way in which this particular punishment fit the sin. Save that the quintessential human need was love, without which, humans would not only lose their lives, but also their humanity. If there was no love that the servant had for his master whom he betrayed, then there would be no love between the ultimate Master and his children. As a consequence, no love, no humanity, no existence.

~~Cody Martin

PS. I commented here

Where's a good goddess when you need her?

I thought the story about Ulysses/Odysseus in Canto XXVI was very interesting. Dante recorded that Ulysses had wanted to "learn about man's vices, and his worth" (XXVI. 99). But Ulysses told the men with him that they were meant "to pursue virtue and knowledge" (Dante XXVI. 120). It seems like Ulysses was deceiving them about his purpose - how could these things be connected? He may have conned them into going on his quest. Ulysses had to conclude this story by saying, "the sea closed over us" (Dante XXVI. 142). I don't think he can trick his way out of this place.

P.S. I commented on Rebekah Dye's post.

Respect

In class we mentioned that it was interesting how the pilgrim Dante still shows a lot of respect for his mentor, even though his mentor is in hell.  I personally don't know if I could act as normally as Dante did, and if I could still sing the praises of a person that I knew had done something very terrible.  Maybe that is the problem though.  It is like seeing the stick in someone's eye while I have a log in my own eye.  Perhaps Dante is the better person because he can see past the bad things that his mentor did and still dare so much about him.  I don't think that it is only because he is trying to hold onto the past.  I think he still just really cares about his mentor and wants to make sure that everyone else knows that even though this man is in hell, he is still a good person.

P.S.  I commented on Emerson's blog

Revelation 21:8

" But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, idol worshipers, and liars- their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur."
 
In Revelations it describes the ones basically at the bottom of hell. If you look at the people in the bottom circles of Dante's hell, these are the sins they have committed. I think it is so interesting to see the truth in Dante's fictional epic. This verse is saying who will be the ones in the fiery lake of hell, and the liars are right their with these other sins we see as greater. Another thing to point out is that all these sins take good gifts that were given from God and pervert them into sinful things. And these are considered to be the worse in Dante's perspective and it also appears they are the worse in the Bible. Just some interesting comparisons I was thinking about. Another Ironic thing is that this verse is in the next to last chapter in the bible and these sins are in the next to last circle of hell! Just food for thought!


Ps I commented on Rebekah Dyes Ullysses in Hell

Serpents and Stealing

Something that I struggled to wrap my mind around when reading the Inferno was why snakes and other serpents were a huge part of the punishment for thieves. Today in class I may have at least made sense of it in my own mind. Relating the punishment to the bible, a serpent was the first deceiver, convincing Adam and Eve to sin. If we look at the act of thievery itself, it is yet another form that deception takes in humans. Faced with physical hardship, one might be driven to steal in order to prevent having to face more hardship. The deception is this, that while stealing may in fact relieve immediate material or physical needs, it is a sin, and therefore is harmful to the soul in two ways; that it is simply one of many others that puts us in danger of hell were it not for God's grace through Jesus, and that it is actually harmful to the soul itself just as any willful act of sin causes issue in our relationship with God. I think, and I may be wrong, that this is the contrapasso here. While in life, thieves were free to engage in this self deception, in Hell, they are held captive and restrained by the original deceiver. Essentially what I see to be happening, is that in Hell, thieves are forced to eternally experience the ultimate consummation of their sin.

PS I commented on Tinsley G's "he listens well who takes in what he hears"

Dante's use of Metamorphosis

I thought it was interesting the way that Dante used metamorphosis and used it in such a way that it totally contradicts the meaning of the word. In nature, metamorphosis is a sign of hope for things to get better and change. But Dante uses metamorphosis as a way to describe the way thieves in hell do not feel sorry for their crimes but do feel shame for being caught. Dante uses metamorphosis to emphasize that these thieves change in matter but yet they do not seem to change; they still possess the same arrogant and violent attitude. Dante shows the severity of the thieves condition in showing that even though they are suffering they are trying to bring others to their level of misery with no redemptive qualities.

P.s. I commented on Tinsley's post

Dante's Punishments

I am enjoying Dante more than I expected I would, not that this is a bad thing. It’s so much fun reading about characters and places I have heard about before. The characters from Greek and Roman mythology mixed with contemporaries of Dante himself give the entire epic a slight ring of truth. I find the punishments Dante describes especially interesting, though I’m still confused as to why Dante chose the exact punishments he did. (I missed class today because my allergies left me feeling incredibly blegh). I’m sure Dante had a good reason to choose the exact punishments he did, but I haven’t been able to decipher the reason yet. I’m looking forward to finishing the epic, mostly because I want to see how Dante treats Judas, that betrayal would be considered the worst of any that Dante puts into his inferno.

Tantum e tenebris receptum constabit,

Meghan

PS - I commented on Tinsley's post

Oh woe!

Wednesday night I was reading Dante before I went to sleep (not advisable considering there are some seriously disturbing images the further you progress into the Inferno) and I read in Canto XXVIII lines 121-123 "And by its hair he held his severed head swinging in his hand as if it were a lantern. The head stared at us and said: 'Oh, woe!'" You must understand that it was a little after midnight- that time of night when everything is funnier than it really is- but  I laughed so hard I almost fell off my bed. All of these horrendous punishments and awful things happening around Dante, and he sees this guy swinging his head- a talking head that says "oh woe." This guy is in with the schismatics because he helped Prince Henry plot against his own father. Something striking about this particular character (Bertran) is that he acknowledges in line 142, "In me you may observe fit punishment." He recognizes that because he helped stir enmity between son and father, and so severed the familial relationship, it is fitting that he is carrying his head around disconnected from his body. Many of the people Dante meet try to lash out or bring him grief, they are unrepentant and seem to think little beyond the pain... but Bertran realizes the contrapasso and justice in his punishment. It makes me wonder how many of the others have contemplated the full implications of their personalized, specific levels of hell. How fitting that the head (intellect) that allowed him the ability to instigate thoughts of rebellion is what is severed from his body. This level of hell was full of people being chopped to pieces, those wounds healing, then being cut up again. But the cuts are different based on the person and the crime.... How did a God of love create this? Besides it being a distortion of good... yeah I'm still working through that.
P.S. Commented on Tyler's "The Snowball Effect"

Those who have not heard...

I was talking with my friend Grant Howell today about Dante's Inferno when we got caught up in conversation about the actual characteristics of Hell. He told me about the discussion that he had in bible study last night: where does a man go (to Heaven or Hell) if he has never even heard the Gospel before. So as our discussion progressed, I really had to put more and more thought into it, but I ended up basing a lot of my assumptions off Inferno (I know, bad idea). Anyways, it got to the point that I decided that there may in fact be certain levels of Hell, and your sins are your punishment, like we said in class. This may in fact be wrong but my assumption helps provide the basis for my question: how much of Inferno can we consider truth? I know that we have been exploring that partly these past couple of weeks but the question Grant and I thought about earlier just got me thinking again. I like to think that the virtuous man who never heard of God receives a punishment that was "lesser" than those of Aristotle and the other virtuous pagans. However, if the virtuous man who has never heard of Jesus actually makes it to Heaven, do us Christians and missionaries run a risk of telling them the Gospel and giving them a chance to reject it?

P.S. I commented on Rebekah Dye's "Ulysses in Hell"

"He listens well who takes in what he hears."

The Inferno continues to fascinate me as it is complex on so many different levels, from the structure of Dante's Hell to the implications of every consequence of sin.  One thing, however, continues to puzzle me:  Where does the fiction in the inferno end and the truth begin for Dante?  Does this structure of Hell make sense beyond the theory?  And beyond all else, where do we find God and Love within this Hell? Where do we find God in Hell, and how is love apparent in this place which was supposedly created by love? Or is love here distorted as everything else is?  Things to think on, and "take in," as Virgil so wisely advised Dante in Canto XV.

Commented on Rebekah's :)

Ulysses in Hell

Deceivers. Deceivers are in the 8th level of Hell. Really far down there! Why is this? Why should deceivers be further down then say, adulterers? Or the priests that renounced the name of Christ?
Today in small groups, this question was asked.
I believe the answer this question is that deception, as opposed to simply telling a lie, takes structured planning. When someone tells a lie, you say it quickly and usually move on. Deception is a lie that needs convincing. Therefore, it takes longer to talk the other person into the 'truth' of the lie. Deceiving someone is not an easy thing to do. One doesn't simply pull that our of your hat. It takes deciding on the counter-truth, applying a story behind that, and then the execution.
I think then, that deceiving can be considered very dangerous, and very bad. When looked at like this, I believe it makes sense why it was considered such a bad sin, and worthy of a punishment of constantly burning.

I commented on Molly Gray's "Virtue"

The Snowball Effect

After our intense discussions over the past two class meetings, I have realized that their seems to be a pattern in Dante's journey through Hell.  Along the outer rims were those who had committed somewhat simple sins, while the inner circles contain those who committed much more complex sins.  It seems as if the deeper that Dante descends into the depths of Hell, the more complexity he seems to find in the various punishments that he witnesses.  I gathered this from the fact that most of the latter sins mentioned are quite similar to the first few levels, but there seems to be more significance embedded within the sins of the inner circles.

An easy example is Dido because she doesn't exist in the realm of the suicides; instead, she remains with the lustful.  Her sin (lust) was much more simple than the sins of those in the Woods of the Suicides.  Those who become trees in the Woods are being punished for far more than any of their lustful or selfish desires.  They are punished for sinning against their own God-given bodies despite any other sins that led to the act of suicide.

The ongoing complexity continues as Dante travels deeper, and some of the most complex punishments are reserved for those in Lower Hell (or the Sins of the Leopard.)  While these people committed sins that could be punished in many previous levels, their sins were far more significant.  As a result, their varying punishments exist in the deeper depths of Hell.

All of this is not to say that any of the punishments are more just than the others.  God's judgment is pure and His justice is supposed to be delivered in perfection.  I suppose the best way to elaborate on this is to apply it to the concept of "the deeper into Hell we go, the less like God the people become."  Upper Hell punishes for normal sins that most people commit daily, while Lower Hell is reserved for some of the most vile or rogue beings.