Socrates verdict on Odysseus...

    Through most of book III in the Republic, I've been battling. I have not agreed with everything Socrates suggests, especially his very detailed censorship, however I do like his model for 'just' judges.  Here Socrates, again, stresses the importance of a pure mind. Basically, Socrates says that a 'just' judge is not one who has had experience with minds who are evil, but one who has grown up shunning evil natures.  For how could a judge accurately judge someone, if He himself had practiced or participated in evil nature himself? Would he not then be more lenient toward those evils, instead of judging them by the law?

     "He must be late to learn about injustice. And he must learn about it not as something inhabiting his own soul but as something he has trained himself to understand through long observation as an alien presence in alien souls. He must learn to understand the measure of evil not by way of experience but by dint of knowledge" (409 b)

 He then goes on to say a man like this would be the most noblest or judges and a good one at that. For the man who has a good soul is good. Then he lays out what is not a 'just' or a wise man.

    "But someone who is cunning and quick to suspect evil, someone who counts himself an expert in trickery, someone who keeps his guard up because he always expects to encounter patterns of behavior similar to his own- such a man does appear to be clever when he is with his own kind. But when he is among his elders and in the company of good people he seems instead to be stupid.... Still he consorts with bad people more often than with good; hence he seems both to himself and others wise rather than foolish"

    Now at first, I thought Socrates was depicting Odysseus, for Odysseus was cunning, crafty, definitely shady. He did always suspects something evil of people, and he did seem very clever to his own kind. Yet, this would mean Socrates was saying the Odysseus was not wise. This would have been a huge shocker to Athenians, after all Athena was Odysseus' patron goddess. He was known as a model of wisdom!  However, as I kept pondering this over, I realized that this could apply to the Suitors. They were very clever in their own eyes and with their own kind.  We know, though, that they were hated as foolish wretches by the good, faithful servants of Odysseus.  

   What is Socrates verdict on Odysseus? My opinion is that Socrates would not call Odysseus a 'just' man but not an evil one either. Thus, Odysseus would not be wise. Socrates final take on the matter is this, "I believe that the man with a virtuous nature-and not the evil man- will prove to be the one who is wise". Does this apply to Odysseus?

P.S. I commented on Josh Spell's post.

Filtration Fuels Frustration

The idea of Censorship is an ingenious way to create the "perfect" or "just" society, but it presents many complications.  If we look at how the world has used the process of Censorship, then we are able to see the picture more clearly.  As the government tries to impress its opinions upon the citizens, many eventually meet what can be considered a "breaking point."  The memory of Enlightenment resounds within my mind along with the echoes of the Great Awakenings, Industrialization, the rise of technology, etc.  These are instances where people became frustrated with life and declared their personal opinions in opposition to the general direction of the world.  The frustration was simply the creativity of humans acting in retaliation to being encaged.  History is infested with similar occurrences, and every circumstance revolves around innovative and radical minds.  My opinion is that humans are too complex to be placed inside of a box for too long.  Eventually, an eccentric personality is born, in which the standard of the world is questioned.  Censorship is similar to Communism because it looks incredible when outlined in an organized manner; however, successfully censoring the lives of countless individuals would become as chaotic and unjust as a communist nation.

Womens Rights in Ancient Greece

In book 7, Socrates tells Glaucon that all he has said before concerning ruling the city should be applied to women as well as men.I believe that it is incredible that Socrates views women as leaders instead of servants or slaves, as most men of that era believed. This idea is revolutionary in a time that women were to only work at the home doing domestic chores while the husband was allowed to participate in politics as well as his other jobs that supported his family. To think that an ancient Greek man thought of something that finally took place in America's 1920's. Could Socrates have been the first women's rights activist in society that was male founded and ruled?  It shows that Socrates was not a respecter of persons, atleast in the sense of gender. I wonder what a modern day Socrates would think of our society and what kind of changes would he or she make on a global scale. What would the world look like in his/ her wake? Would he/she meet the same fate? These questions may never be answered, or they could depending on the outcome of the future. Only time can tell.

Socrates' City

At first look, Socrates' city might seem just but I disagree. I don't believe that you can found anything, especially a society, on anything other than just and honest principles. Socrates did not do this when he founded, or made up his city. In fact, Socrates said that it would be perfectly ok for the leader of the city to lie to the citizens of that city. In the U.S.A our Government lies to us and that's just a fact, anybody who doesn't believe that needs to wake up, but the fundamental difference between Socrates' city and the U.S. is that America was not founded on lies and deceit. America was intended to be a country in which our government was honest. It is my personal belief that if you are going to have a truly just society then it needs to be founded on just principles.

PS: I commented on Joshua Spells post.

Health to the Soul

In book four of The Republic this general concept is presented -
Justice amounts to the health of the Soul.

In other words, your just or unjust acts, effect your health. I thought about this, I applied this, and this is what I think. I take that to mean your physical, emotional, and/or spiritual health is compromised when you act against God. All of the above. All three. When you are saved by the blood of Christ, you are under His law. When you commit an unjust act against the law of God, it will start to wear on you. If that unjust act then continues to be un-confessed, you will become, a.) Separated from God through lack of communication, b.) Easily upset and emotionally effected, and c.) You will be led to a stress that could cause physical damage to your body.
People may think that the consequences of an injustice are short lived and not that severe, but I believe, as Socrates believed, that justice amounts to the health of the soul. That's why it so important that we do the right thing, and are kept pure before God.

P.s. I commented on emilylaforce's "Why you have to go make things so complicated?"

X Equals Justice

The question "What is justice?" can be represented by the equation "x = justice". Presupposing that justice actually exists, man can surmise that it is something fixed, something transcendent, and something other than a utilitarian and arbitrary construct for the collective well-being of a society. From there, men can reason and dialog towards a viable working definition that is truthful, rational and (hopefully) agreeable.

So "x = justice"... but what is "x"? Man seems to know that it is, but in and of himself, he cannot seem to figure out what it is.

Why you have to go and make things so complicated?

I think the reason why Socrates gets in such trouble with everyone is that he wants a formula for life. He wants someone to tell him a concept that he can apply to all of his other problems, like when you know addition, then you can add any two numbers together and get an answer. However, life doesn't have a secret formula or a one size fits all. Socrates tells Crito that he can't escape his sentence because that would be disobeying the laws, which would then be unjust. Because in order to be just, you have to obey the law. First of all, I feel bad for Socrates because I feel like he ties himself in knots. You know what I would do if I was in his boat? I would just ask God what to do. Instead of putting my faith in human wisdom and all the moral precepts in the world, I would just ask God if he wanted me to escape from prison or get put on death row. Ultimate justice is defined by God because God is just, so the question is, what does God want you to do? Because if you follow what God tells you to do, your actions will be just. (P.S. commented on Michelle Nellsch's Women's rights in ancient Greece.)